GP: Gender VS Sexuality

The Back Room
#1

GP means General Paper.

I think about a week ago my GP teacher brought up the topic of “Gender VS Sexuality” in which he states that gender is a given - which I agree - and sexuality is a choice - which I absolutely disagree.

Attraction is an unexplainable chemistry. It may be due to your female/male hormones or this phenomenon known as “love at first sight” but you certainly cannot choose who you are attracted to, whether the party is a male or a female.

For example, if you are a crazy fan of a Korean band, can you choose which idol to be attracted to or craze over? You may love all of them, 2 of them or maybe only 1 of them but can you choose? Can you help yourself? I do not think so.

I view attraction as one of the many grey areas in life. Thus, I do not agree with the notion that sexuality is a choice. In this case, let’s talk about homosexuality.

I think it is an insult to say homosexuality is a choice. Yes, he or she can choose who they marry or be with but the distinct fact is that, the attraction is somewhere else. If the gay male forces himself to be with a woman because “sexuality is a choice” and that “homosexuality is disgusting as viewed by the public”, he will still be a homosexual (not publicly, in this case) because let’s put it bluntly, the woman does not turn him on in the slightest bit.

Let’s take another example, you’re a heterosexual female, can you choose - or force yourself - to love another female? No, of course not. So, why is homosexuality viewed any differently?

Thus, how can sexuality be a choice? Can you help yourself who you’re attracted to?

Actually, the more important question is, is my GP teacher wrong?

#2

Hmmm, well from a point yeh, he’s right, we don’t choose to be male or female, thats something that came but it self, chromosomes and blabla , but we do have the right to chose to have sex or not, this is his point i guess.
but sexuality leads to gender, without sexuality there is no gender :slight_smile: .
i can say sexuality is the key to the gender thingy [wink].

Is this a philosophy class or what ?

#3

[quote=28thART]Hmmm, well from a point yeh, he’s right, we don’t choose to be male or female, thats something that came but it self, chromosomes and blabla , but we do have the right to chose to have sex or not, this is his point i guess.
but sexuality leads to gender, without sexuality there is no gender :slight_smile: .
i can say sexuality is the key to the gender thingy [wink].

Is this a philosophy class or what ?

#4

Yeh you are right, gender first, then sexuality !
being gay or lesbian it maybe a choice for some cases and it maybe not, as i know some girls they are acting like men, while some men acting like girls, some sickness and some problems in chromosomes, there are some cases where the man have XXY, its a disease, and some cases, XYY, but its rare.
Also, sometimes the children affected by the surrounding ppl, like some boys have only sisters and they keep playing sharing their life together, till the boy start acting like a girl.
but, honestly sexuality is a choice, coz all gays lesbians nowadays they choose to be gay/lesbian, and i really hate it.

#5

It’s very interesting topic to discuss. I think what your GP teacher said may be mean to the different meaning you understand. It’s definitely true that human can’t choose their gender but they can choose to be heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual.

I agree with you, we can’t control our chemistry because it has been wrote in our genome, it’s true in dimension of passion but don’t forget there’re another factor influence the human relationship such as personal experience.

For example, when you go to a boutique or fashion store for buying a shirt, you’ll have more than one reason to choose, not only from “love at first sight” but also with the quality of fabric, matching with your body, valuable for payment, durability of usage, opportunity for dress it up and etc.

For me, choosing the sexuality is mean the human can choose what they want to be although it’s different from their gender.

Apologize for my poor grammar XD and thanks for reading my opinion.[biggrin]

#6

[quote=28thART]Yeh you are right, gender first, then sexuality !
being gay or lesbian it maybe a choice for some cases and it maybe not, as i know some girls they are acting like men, while some men acting like girls, some sickness and some problems in chromosomes, there are some cases where the man have XXY, its a disease, and some cases, XYY, but its rare.
Also, sometimes the children affected by the surrounding ppl, like some boys have only sisters and they keep playing sharing their life together, till the boy start acting like a girl.
but, honestly sexuality is a choice, coz all gays lesbians nowadays they choose to be gay/lesbian, and i really hate it.

#7

[quote=ExotiquesFrors]I think what your GP teacher said may be mean to the different meaning you understand. It’s definitely true that human can’t choose their gender but they can choose to be heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual.

I agree with you, we can’t control our chemistry because it has been wrote in our genome, it’s true in dimension of passion but don’t forget there’re another factor influence the human relationship such as personal experience.

For example, when you go to a boutique or fashion store for buying a shirt, you’ll have more than one reason to choose, not only from “love at first sight” but also with the quality of fabric, matching with your body, valuable for payment, durability of usage, opportunity for dress it up and etc. [/quote]
Nah I think I understood his meaning perfectly.

I understand your argument but still don’t see how it’s a choice. Let’s tap into “real” sexuality here. Yes, people can choose to be hetero, homo or bi but the topic here is the underlying real emotion and attraction that he or she feels no matter what he or she chooses. I can say now I choose to be a homosexual because of whatever reason, but is that really who I am? Am I really attracted to other females? On the inside? The sexuality here that I am talking about is “pure”. (it doesn’t mean no influences but I mean, it should not be taken at face value)

As you said: quality of fabric, matching with your body, valuable for payment, durability of usage, opportunity for dress it up and etc.

Can you choose which clothing matches your body? Can you choose your liking to a certain fabric? If you like satin, can you choose to like cotton? Can you help yourself on which type of fabric you like? You can’t, isn’t it? So, it is still not a choice “choice”. Anyway, I do not think such an example is suitable because you can’t compare issues that are different.

Lastly, erm, can you elaborate how personal experiences relates to sexuality being a choice? You only gave me one sentence there so I don’t really understand.

Do not mean to come off as strong or offensive but this is the intensity of GP in Singapore… :slight_smile:

#8

i’m a potato

#9

[quote=pizzazombie]i’m a potato

#10

Ahhhh, now I think I understand more clearly what you meant. I’ll explain how the experience influence human tasting by refer to Freud’s theory.

First, you know this theory, Zoe? I need to know because If you got basic psychology, it’ll be easier to explain. If you don’t get, I’ll try in the different way.

After I know your answer, my next discussion’ll be wrote. :stuck_out_tongue:

#11

[quote=ExotiquesFrors]Ahhhh, now I think I understand more clearly what you meant. I’ll explain how the experience influence human tasting by refer to Freud’s theory.

First, you know this theory, Zoe? I need to know because If you got basic psychology, it’ll be easier to explain. If you don’t get, I’ll try in the different way.

After I know your answer, my next discussion’ll be wrote. :P[/quote]
Nopes I have no basic psych knowledge. But what I do know is, one’s idea of humanity will influence how we see others or how we see relationships. For example, meant no disrespect, my idea of love is that young boys or boys my age are immature. It will ultimately lead me to ignore boys my age unless one of them actually make an effort to prove my concept wrong. However, influence or not, can I ultimately choose who leaves a distaste and who I’m attracted to?

I sort of get your point. Even if your preference is influenced by your personal experience, you still cannot consciously change yourself by choosing whether to be homosexual, hetero or bi, right?

For example, a painful childhood sexual abuse experience has caused John to be spiteful towards male partners so he obviously do not want to get involve with male partners because he is afraid of being abused again. Over time, there will be this barrier which ultimately cause him to be heterosexual. However, is it possible for him to choose to be with male partners when it scares him?

Reversely, John wishes to re-enact the aggressive daddy-son incest thus he finds himself attracted to older male partners. Thus, he is a homosexual (or maybe bisexual). But can he choose not to feel attracted to male partners when it just comes with a snap?

Both Johns in my very blunt case studies can change their sexuality if they go through counseling or therapy or whatnot. After that, can they still choose who they are attracted to?

More importantly, is my GP teacher wrong?

#12

OK, Zoe. Let’s do some lecture LOL
I’ll try to explain and answer your questions.

Human psyche can divide in 2 major levels, its “Conscious” and “Unconscious”. The conscious includes everything that is inside of the awareness, its controllable stage while the unconscious refers to the mental processes of which individuals make themselves unaware. Sometimes the psychologist put the “Preconscious” or “Semi-conscious” between the conscious and the unconscious to refers to something like awakening, implicit memory, subliminal messages, trances, hypnagogia, and hypnosis. (look the pic above)

Well, now let’s know “Id”, “Ego” and “Superego”. The id is defined as instincts and drive e.g. hungry or sexual needs. The ego means same as the conscious and the superego is the aptitude of the intellect that distinguishes right from wrong.

And what I explain above relate with the sexuality? Let’s see (my hand writing is quite hard to read :P)

When we’re in conscious we’ll express our sexual behavior by controlling from the superego. The superego is constructed by learning or experience. Although John’s id needs to be homo but his experience suppress him to don’t be that. Just when he is in conscious but when he fall in unconscious, it absolutely unchangeable.

So your opinion was right in the unconscious level and your GP teacher was right in the conscious level.

And if John has got counseling or psychotherapy may be he can change (it’s up to the method and his acceptability)

Hope you’re not confuse with my explanation :stuck_out_tongue: If you have any question or something unclear, please don’t hesitate to tell me (or google it may be better LOL)

#13

Ah I see, now I understand what you are saying. But I think the fault in my John case study is i didn’t state whether he is homo or hetero from the start.

A) To help me understand better, if John is actually a homosexual than whether the abuse happened or not, "unconsciously " John would be attracted to guys whether he is afraid of them or wishes to re-enact the incest BUT he chooses “consciously” to be with a girl because he is afraid (influence from personal experience) but ultimately, he is still attracted to males (unconscious). Than I agree with “So your opinion was right in the unconscious level and your GP teacher was right in the conscious level.”

B) Conversely, if John is hetero then whether the abuse affected him or not, which is, whether he is afraid of males or wish to re-enact the incest, does not matter because he is still ultimately attracted to girls. He is attracted to girls not because he is afraid of males but because he is attracted to girls, this is “unconscious”. If John wants to re-enact the incest, it does not stem from attraction to guys (like in A), this then automatically becomes a psychological issue of the state of mind, this is “conscious” BUT it is no longer related to sexuality anymore. This than means the statement “So your opinion was right in the unconscious level and your GP teacher was right in the conscious level.” does not apply because, even if consciously he chooses to be with a male, it is not for all the love love reasons (like in A), it is for re-enactment.

This topic is such an ass to discuss lol… my mind is exploding, I hope you understood what I meant :slight_smile:

#14

nodding Yep, it’s such a brain bursting topic like the chicken or the egg dilemma LOL

May be you’ll die before you get the conclusion XD

#15

[quote=ExotiquesFrors]nodding Yep, it’s such a brain bursting topic like the chicken or the egg dilemma LOL

May be you’ll die before you get the conclusion XD[/quote]

I for one think chicken comes first. I made a thread about it lol: http://lpunderground.groundctrl.net/forum/back-room/1492321

#16

Hey ^^ I know you from Lpfiction :wink:

I totally agree with you! All things you said, were right.
You can´t choose to whom you love…that´s fact…
and homosexuality IS NORMAL! I hate homophobic people…

lovely greets :wink:

#17

[quote=Estelle]Hey ^^ I know you from Lpfiction :wink:

I totally agree with you! All things you said, were right.
You can´t choose to whom you love…that´s fact…
and homosexuality IS NORMAL! I hate homophobic people…

lovely greets ;)[/quote]

:open_mouth: LPFiction! (It’s taboo on LPU lol!) Nice to meet you btw!

Thanks for agreeing with me, I had a hard time typing out my thoughts as it is a very deep topic!

#18

[quote=ZoeLinkingal][/quote]
Well, I guess your answer depends on your morals. But I’am with you!

Humans can arrange with personal circumstances and live with it. Look at countrys, where forced marriage is common. But habituate to a partner and loving a partner are two different things. That has nothing to do with a free choice.

Our hearts are telling us, who we truly love. We can’t change our “system software”. And to claim, that this is possible, isn’t honest.

I reckon your teacher is married, maybe he has kids. How can such a lucky person, talk about things, that never happend to him? Maybe he should invite a homo and ask him about his “choices”.

Btw these things should be valid for everyone: respect and tolerance

#19

I believe, if homosexuality was a choice, there would be a lot less homosexuals in the world. If I look at the struggle most homosexuals have with their sexuality and the fact that some try to push it away clashes with you teacher’s idea of attraction. Plus there has been a time that I liked a guy who’s in my class and I didn’t want to… I know this sounds weird but I was attracted to him but at the same time I suffered because of that because in my mind I just wanted to be friends… Now I’m two years further and my little crush is long gone (and my friendship isn’t ^^) but I think that kind of proves that you don’t choose who you get physically attracted to (and it proves that I am REALLY weird 'cause how can you like someone and not like someone at the same time? xD)

anyways all this leads me to another point, what do you think about pedophiles? I mean I think we can all agree on the fact that it’s wrong and awful etc. etc. BUT, WHAT IF you get born with an attraction to young children? I mean if you can be attracted to women, men, elderly people, why can’t you be attracted to young children? do you, or your teacher or whoever reads this think pedophiles choose to be attracted to children? I don’t think so, I think they have an awful life. If your a pedophile and get attracted to someone and you can’t give in to it, never, not once in your life, how sexually frustrated will they get? No sex ever, no love ever… I feel really bad for pedophiles and PLEASE before you think I’m saying that pedophiles who rape children are ok, I DON’T. I think even though those people must have a hard life they cannot give in to that urge, simply because they will scar those poor children. I just say that the pedophiles who know they are pedophiles and who are raised just like you and me and won’t give in to their urge because some of them have a heart and a soul too. Those people have a really hard and lonely life and NO I don’t believe ANYBODY would choose for a life like that.

#20

Good topic.

Anyone who thinks sexuality is a choice is very mistaken. Ask a heterosexual person if they have ever ‘been’ with or thought of getting with someone of the same sex. The answer you get is a straight up “NO!”. You ask why and they say it’s because they are straight and they are not attracted to people of the same sex. You then ask why that is and they can’t explain it. They are just born that way. It is instinct for them. The same applies to a homosexual person.

If you are suggesting it’s a choice then that would mean you have chosen to be straight? And this can only suggest that at some point in your life you considered both gay and straight lifestyles and decided a path to go down? This would then mean that you believe everyone is born with a neutral sexuality - and external influences such as culture, etc - determined the outcome of who you do and do not like.

If you believe this then why is it not encouraged that people experiment more? Why are children brought up into thinking that homosexuality is a bad thing? The use of the word “gay” as an insult does not help either. I guess my argument here is that if you believe in choice - then why is it that homosexuality is viewed in a negative light if you too had the freedom to choose at one point? Why is homosexuality such a big deal within society if we were all allowed to choose who we were/who we liked/how we act?
(I think this makes some sense)

This idea, to me, only suggests that sexuality is something you are born with. You do not choose to like women. You do not choose to like men. If it was a matter of choice then I believe homosexuality would be far more acceptable. The fact you are born a certain way and can’t help it gives society a far better reason to pick on you. Only now are some countries starting to accept homosexuality for what it is. Homophobia is the problem - not the homosexuals.