I wouldn’t call it slavery, also it’s a sort of necessary blackmail, like compulsory education. I don’t feel as strongly as you do on this topic.
To also add to the enslavement portion, it unfortunately is a means of control, but at the same time has to be established in order for this world to work. Common folk wouldn’t know what to do with such freedom. Unfortunately, I do agree that the power structure is very biased and in the type of democracy, or so we call it, the rich will just continue to get richer and can even meddle in elections to have their own agenda’s pushed. This has been shown time and time again, corruption exists and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
The thing that worries me honestly, is how the government controls all sort of media, but keep pushing very controversial things forward. Like in rap for example, women are still constantly degraded but is pushed. The sex, materialism and money brainwashing is pushed onto people 24/7 through media itself. So if everyone else is doing it, why shouldn’t you?
To me, it is pretty much slim pickings from there, you also play a game in which you are “limited” to only things that “can be done”.
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And who gets to decides what is “best” for the people? Someone with experience in the particular field in that community? Or if you had to group more people, maybe to form concensus, it would be more difficult to find a single voice so you elect someone? This is heading towards general government selection. Isn’t it?
Also, I said paying taxes is our moral obligation as that is how we contribute to society, albeit forcefully.
The Portugal article showed that the legalisation of drug solved the drug problem, not every problem of the soviety. In that case, I vote for “Purge” to happen every year.
If this is what we base our entire society on, then there’s something deeply wrong. If human beings refuse to recognise the true nature of taxation, we’ll never be free.
So you don’t trust people with freedom? Then how can you trust people with power?
That’s the thing, no one can! Only we ourselves can decide what’s best for us. Same way you can’t decide what’s best for your friend and force him to live according to your views. People need to trust each other with freedom, so everyone can contribute to society in the way they see fit. That way they can choose which organisations and public projects to finance (only the best ones).
We don’t need to elect someone to save us from each other. We need to realise the power is in our own hands! Only we can save us.
That brings a really interesting question @rickvanmeijel, who can we trust, if we can’t trust ourselves? Yes, society has to also have the evils in order to function, I’ve gone deep down the rabbit hole to understand, why said things are done and how they are brought to light. Think about it this way, we are set up the stage, and have somewhat of a responsibility towards everything going on around us (In the case of whether we take action against what we feel unjust, or just sit around and wait it out).
As messed up as it sounds, not everyone is equal, no matter the race, color, religion, etc. We all have our things that we are better than at others. Not everyone critically thinks to the extent that they are enslaved unfortunately. People can go their entire lives just contributing to system itself and never “get it”. Just doing what they are told are the “goals” to be “successful” in life. All of these are pretty much defined by those controlling the narrative.
The thing is, the human being is far detached from nature due to the rise of technology, our children basically are born with a tablet on their hands. Social media molds the way the youth thinks, and they overthink it too much when they get negative reactions. Heck, society as a whole pushes blackmail, even our youngsters. Your own friends nowadays tease you to the extent these kids get so paranoid, that they don’t want to even go to school and such.
To add to the top, we can’t trust ourselves, as many don’t love who they are. These are memes pushed by society which maintain people depressed because they can’t fit in to a norm of established rules. It IS HARD to get off a mentality of negativity and also see that your body is loaned to you, you won’t always have this body, it is cursed with death as much as it is gifted with life.
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I agree with many points you’re making, however
If we can’t trust ourselves, we’re done. Then there’s nothing left for us to do here. If we can’t trust ourselves, people with evil motivations will take over (this is basically our current situation).
So we must choose to trust and believe in our potential, in the positive things we can achieve, and actively work on making things better during our lives. Like you say, that’s our responsibility.
So get the children off social media and throw the crap away. Teach the children how to be responsible and how to think for themselves! There’s nothing more important.
I admit that it’s hard indeed. Though as long as you are alive, your body and mind are YOUR property only. It’s your birth right! Thus, to take it back to the tax discussion, no one ever has or will ever have the right to claim any portion of what you have produced with your body and mind.
With that same logic, why should the government feel obliged to provide them with amenities?
If people financed things with this method, how would they ever decide what to finance? Everyone has different opinions on what is the “best” healthcare, food, security, etc. I mean just look at today’s political parties in America. They need a democratic way to decide what this money is used to finance.
Additionally, people aren’t gonna just voluntarily cough up money to spend on public projects like this. They are too protective of their money to spend such a large amount on something that isn’t necessarily their property. Also, a person or group would be necessary to organize the collective decision of the people, collect the funds, and carry out the project. Hence, taxes and government officials.
Without some type of central organization, there would just be chaos. People need someone or something to tell them what to do.
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But who is “we” in a society. Individuality will definitely be there. Say we 4-5 people responding to this conversation are a society. Who will decide if we should get healthcare or not? We will have to go with majority when we are viewing for the betterment.
I agree with a few points made earlier, but not at all with this one. Just because we dont “get it”, doesnt make us wrong.
I see @jrtrussell is more structured than me. Good! He can support my incoherent ramblings.
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Yes, many biases unfortunately play into all of this. The thing is many of us have been brought up through different ideologies and beliefs, which can make or break things when in situations like this one.
We are at a point where we have major religions that express disagreement upon one another, but work with those who practice such faith. It is just when the biases cross paths that they collide and bring forth trouble.
The common human being is either too distracted or too busy to actually acknowledge that something may/may not be wrong. We are bombarded with things such as our own lives, issues, media, entertainment, that it doesn’t give much wiggle room to think beyond to what we are taught. Hey its on a textbook or my teacher told me, so it must be true?
The entertainment business, whether it be sports, movies, music, rakes in quite tremendous amounts of money. But mainstream artists IMO don’t have that “talent” like back in the day. All of them are tools just to keep the masses at bay. Bread and Circus basically.
I wish it were easier to get people unhooked from these “demons”, but unfortunately if your not on social media, you’re weird xD. (Coming from a guy who only has the LPU as his social network) But even to me social media can become anti-social, sort of like this. I’m typing through a PC having less contact with another physical being. Time unfortunately is also of these essence, there are so many things that can be down NOW with action, but many just don’t have that will power to do it because they don’t have that trust in themselves. The human being thinks they are powerless, but they can do so much if they strive for it.
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I should’ve been more clear: I’m talking ‘‘we’’ as in individuals. Every individual has the responsibility to decide what’s best for him/her. No one else can dictate or force that, because that would be slavery.
To expand on health care for example, imagine a taxless based society. I would imagine people would want to continue to have good health care! They start financing hospitals and doctors to provide for them whenever needed and only the ones that do their work best will survive (because who would finance poor health care?).
Because established governments don’t want a full uprising on their hands. That would be the end for them.
I think they would. How else can we survive? Public projects provide us with immense amounts of benefits. I’m trying to say that things wouldn’t be too different in my scenario. The major difference would be a free will based and financed society, without the need of blackmail, coercion, theft and slavery (read: taxation). Which scenario would you prefer?
BTW just wanna say this is a great discussion! Thanks for being reasonable everyone 
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By saying that taxation is theft, yet people would be willing to voluntarily pay for public projects sorta goes against each other and implies that some people wouldn’t pay for these projects (people needing a choice implies that some people would say no). I believe that this population would be pretty large, I mean just look at the population of people who don’t vote. Some people just don’t care about what happens with the government. With such a large population not paying for these projects the budget for these projects would be much smaller. Also, would the voice of these people still be heard. Would they get a say in what the money goes to even if they choose to not pay?
I would prefer the established system. I’ll admit it isn’t perfect (just look at our president 
) but, in my opinion, it is the best solution to the problem considering the context of the situation. My voice can be heard through the election of representatives who I know I can trust to make decisions with my wellbeing in mind. I know that my government will protect me and provide me with all the necessary amenities in exchange for a small percentage of my income. I honestly don’t view the taxation as theft because I know it’ll be used to better my life or my country in some way.
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You just countered your own point. Say I do not have sufficient fund to pay for an ailment I have. Dies that mean I should go untreated? Do you agree that in a similar situation I shouldnt pay for someone else?
Isnt today your bday? Go out, have some fun!
@jrtrussell noice!
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To avoid any confusion, by using ‘‘public projects’’ I’ve been referring to voluntarily based and financed projects. So without government intervention.
That’s right, not everyone would contribute in the same way, right away or even at all. That’s what’s freedom about, you can’t force people to do anything. It has to be a choice, otherwise there’s no freedom.
I hear people saying this a lot and I get where they come from. Though it’s not a view, it is a FACT. You can come to this conclusion by reasoning. I’ve explained it earlier today, but I will try again:
With taxation there is no free will choice involved. You MUST give away a portion of your hard earned reward to the government, so that they will decide what amenities will be financed with that portion.
Now the point of it all is: If you refuse to pay and keep your reward for yourself (for which you have every right to do, since it’s your reward for working), the government will send armed forces and threaten you with violence. If you still refuse at this point, they will do you harm or lock you up in a cage.
In other words, they use coercion to steal your money under the threat of violence. It’s slavery because you can’t keep the full reward you worked for.
In a moral society with conscious beings, I don’t think anyone would let you just suffer. Just because you’re not able to help finance health care shouldn’t mean you should go untreated.
Can you answer me this: what if a thief steals your hard earned money? Should he be punished? He too put in his hard work to steal that money from you.
Edit: it is subjective at the moment whereas government ensures that this is taken care of explicitly. Thats why taxes help. Definitely there are lapsea, but at least it is not left for the crowd funding scenario.
Yes he should be punished, because he has no right to steal from anyone. Just as the IRS or any tax collector has no right to steal.
‘‘Hard work to steal’’? You’re overthinking it. By hard work I mean the reward you get for working at a job. Stealing isn’t working, it’s taking something that doesn’t belong to you. Something you haven’t worked for.
The idea of a government is to provide amenities, protection, and order to its people. That is the reason for its existence. And to provide these, they need some form of income, produced from the people they are serving. Without an income, governments would be unable to provide these for their people and cease to exist. Then the world would return to uncontrolled chaos, until another group stepped up to lead everyone.
There have been groups or individuals to lead societies ever since societies grew large enough to require leadership. A strong centralized form of leadership, whether in the form of a small group or an individual, will naturally emerge in a society without one. A group decision could never be made without some form of leadership. Someone needs to be there to make a definitive decision with his/her people’s well-being in mind.
I see what you mean, but how would this work in the world of consumerism? Everyone working in factories produces products that will eventually be owned by somebody else, and the reward for their hard work goes to their boss. Should they be able to keep what they produce because it was their own hard work that produced it? If so, should everybody just produce their own products then?
The factory workers produce goods to improve the well-being of the rest of the world in exchange for a salary from their boss who they work for (or serve). Similarly, the government provides amenities and protection for the people, it exchange for income in the form of taxes from the people they serve.
Yes true, but you must realise that a government can’t function without collecting taxes (read: stealing money) to funds its amenities. It FORCES everyone under threat of violence to pay taxes, otherwise nobody would comply.
I agree leadership is good! Though free will has to be there in order to have a free society. By having taxes, you can never have a completely free society.
No, the workers made a free will choice to comply with the rules of the company and receive money as a reward for working there. The workers helped produce the products, but that doesn’t mean these products are their form of reward as well.
Note that this is different from paying taxes. The workers have a free will choice to work at the factory and quit whenever they like. Citizens of a country, however, don’t have a free will choice to pay taxes and they can’t just leave! This immoral system runs in every country of the world.
By being a citizen of a country, people are similarly agreeing to comply with the laws set forth by the government of said country. If they find these terms unfair they can cease being a citizen and leave.
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